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Talk:Apollo Square
Possible Easter Egg Storm Trooper picture in Apollo Square. Trivia worthy, or am I just seeing things? ::) I think you are seeing things. It just looks like a weird bearded man to me. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 18:21, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :- :Looks like a woman with light colored hair (lit from right side) looking at tha camera shoulder forward left side, forearm holding hand to neck right side 18:46, August 24, 2013 (UTC) Trivia (Moving speculation to talk page. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ 'ʈalk''' }]] 07:00, January 13, 2010 (UTC))'' * Moments after passing the Artemis Suites sign, there is a memorial wall covered in 'Missing person' posters. Before completely entering the room, the player can see a Splicer that appears to be mourning over a lost loved one in silence. This scene is a fair example that shows that Splicers are not just insane and cold killers. * Although not one of the first places to be affected during Rapture Civil War, Apollo Square appears to have taken the hardest hits during the war, judging by the fact that there isn't a single location in the area intact with the exception of the roof framing which protects the area. * The inhabitants of the Little Sister's Orphanage appear to have attempted to continue fighting for as long as possible prior to Jack's arrival, as shown by the weapon stores and barricades located throughout the complex. Pauper's Drop vs Apollo Square Something I don't undertstand is why Pauper's Drop was always decried as the worst place to live in Rapture. It seems clear to me that it's at least better than Apollo Square. Admittedly, large parts of the Drop were assembled in an impromptu fashion and the Sinclair Deluxe was constructed shoddily, but, on the whole, it seems like a more livable community that the sparse and utilitarian Apollo Square. The Artemis Suites and Hestia both have communal restrooms and tenement style sleeping quarters, while the Deluxe and other places in the Drop have individual apartments with their own bathrooms. Not to mention the vast amounts of corpses strewn about Apollo Square. Unownshipper (talk) 08:10, September 23, 2012 (UTC) :I think a lot of it has to do with the perceptions of Rapture's citizens, and a lot of it has to do with the actual infrastructure of the locations. Even though Apollo Square and other areas were low-quality, they were at least built with the intention of housing people. Pauper's Drop on the other hand was never meant to be inhabited, so its design doesn't fit its current function. This is evident from the train car tracks and improvised struts used to hold up the ceiling. As Sinclair said, "there aint a side of the tracks more wrong than under 'em." BioShock: Rapture also expands a bit on the problems with Pauper's Drop. For instance, the buildings in the Drop were constructed in a haphazard way, sometimes even covering up trapdoors to maintenance tunnels. Even in 1955 (the height of Rapture's prosperity) no one in Pauper's Drop could afford simple trash removal or maintenance services. :Another factor is transportation: The Drop is accessible by the outmoded train system that connects only the older parts of Rapture. Apollo Square on the other hand is connected to the bathysphere network, making daily transit to other districts much more efficient for its residents. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 10:02, September 23, 2012 (UTC) -- Paupers Drop looks like it was more than some simple shantytown with developed buildings/businesses, a proper train station serving it. The Sinclair Deluxe (which is almost as large in area as three other sections combined) actually looks pretty good inside (consider current condition its been many years since Sinclair ran it (5/6 ?) and it hasnt been too well kept up by the new management). Some areas (Skid Row) do look like they've been kludged together much more (post-CivilWar). Even with the talk of it being 'under the tracks' it looks like it had been redeveloped (Sinclair maybe) with quite a bit of money instead of being a shantytownscardboard and corregated iron. Buildings in Apollo square look to have been intentionally built as tenements. 19:02, August 24, 2013 (UTC) Are they missing? It says on the page that there are photos of missing people everywhere. But I'd suggest that because of the flowers it's also a memorial for those who've died. Flowers and a picture is a common way of respecting a memory. 11:20, August 24, 2013 (UTC)MelonKony :If I recall, some of the photos have "have you seen me" written on them. At one point this might have been a wall devoted to people who disappeared, but slowly became devoted to those who died. :Unownshipper (talk) 16:35, August 24, 2013 (UTC) :-- :There can be all kinds of chaos during wars and with ADAM insanity ontop of it, even in a closed City, people would disappear. :They probably intended to imply that these people were 'disappeared' by 'the tyrant' Ryan, but one of the most effective methods of terrifying a population is not just to murder people randomly in the streets, but to make them disappear entirely. Atlas/Fontaine would use such tactics with his Splicers to get what he was after. Large numbers of people would not support Atlas (most people like order and not starving and not being murdered and didnt have the complaints he used to foment unrest with) and he would need to terrorize them to control Rapture. Ryan had jails in Persephone to dump people working for Atlas. Apollo Square looks like it was closed off because Atlas hid there frequently and it was too much of a warren to control directly (not quite a concentration camp, more like an uncontrollable hazardous slum, best walled off ) :Ironic would be most of those people in the pictures had been 'disappeared' by the actions of Atlas while at the same time he encourages such walls in his propaganda campaign. : 19:53, August 24, 2013 (UTC) :Consider that many Splicers no longer might be recognizable and if insane enough might not be able to disclose/remember their identity. So, many of the 'Lost' may have simply become nameless (and faceless) Splicers. : 17:37, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :Scene of strung up people in (Bas) Fontaine's Department store "Turncoats" offers evidence of Atlas having a history of using such methods to terrorize opponents. (no reason for Ryan to do such a thing, but very much for 'Atlas' trying to become 'the rebel leader' without others who assume they also 'have a say'..... : 00:44, February 08, 2014 (UTC) ::That pretty strong supposition for you to assume that Atlas did that. What about all the other lunatics in the place. They could have easily pulled that off. ::Unownshipper (talk) 22:58, February 8, 2014 (UTC) Business Signs Night at the Kashmir is right, we don't need a list of the businesses seen out the window in the tram tunnel. Still, I'd like a record of where evidence of these business are seen (even if that might not actually be were they are physically located), so here's the deleted text: *Connects the Olympus Heights bulkhead to Apollo Square. Advertisements for Fleet Hall and other businesses such as Finley's Eat-In Take-Out, Hat Shoppe, Fat Cat Lounge, Nate's Guns & Ammo, Heller News, Vine Ripe Fresh Fruits, Joe - Eric Comics & Novelties, Tom & Dave Hired Guns, Lentz Bijoux & Bibelots, and Lisa's Candies can be seen. Unownshipper (talk) 03:51, June 5, 2014 (UTC) Not people involved in the smuggling operation (to) ? "Ryan sent city authorities after Atlas, his men, and all suspects that were considered affiliated with his revolutionary cause and relocated them to Fontaine's Department Store." Wasnt it stated somewhere that 'atlas' was a fisherman (which fits his being rounded up) Other survivors of the 'shootout' - wouldnt they be incarcerated (possibly ones filtered out by Sullivans investigation to be ones actually involved in the crimes... since it has been months). Atlas/Fontaine (in BaS) appears to have some of his lackeys with him who KNOW who he is. We heard about splicers fighting off the police at Neptunes Bounty, but wouldn't it have been a HUGE story, this early (Pre Civil War/PreKashmir), to hear about MANY MORE dangerous Splicers stalking the streets of Rapture ? Why else would Kashmir be such a big shock?? We see LOTS of dangerous deranged Splicers locked up IN Fontaines - so NOT any from Fontaines smuggling gang taken after that raid? --- Also the new buildup of 'Atlas' as the already publicly-known revolutionary doesnt really fit ... he should at that point be an unknown, or he WOULD have been locked up in Solitary at Persephone as a ringleader by Ryan. In Fontaine's he's vulnerable and should be keeping his head down until he can escape. 17:13, February 25, 2015 (UTC) :I think it was never stated who Atlas was supposed to be before the riots. He kinda popped out of nowhere in Rapture and started rallying the working class (first those who lived of Fontaine's "charity") against Ryan. :Peach Wilkins doesn't seem to have been incarcerated, him and his men who barricaded themselves in the fisheries. I think he rated Fontaine out to Sullivan, but who can blame him? The smugglers were only part of Fontaine's band because he blackmailed them, and were kept in control mostly by fear, not loyalty. So no smugglers among the rioters. Paranoia was too strong among them to make them leave their stronghold, I think. :I believe there's misconception on the fact that the Splicers at Fontaine's were or were not survivors of the shootout. Technically the store was not converted into a prison before at least late November 1958, and it was done in 10 days. I'd say the prisoners were whoever still lived in Fontaine's poorhouses a few months after the shootout and disgruntled former employees. It was probably also a relief for Ryan if most of them were already spliced and crazed, because there was nothing to treat them. Atlas happened to have been swept among them (or planned it), and he kept contact with Rapture while rallying the Splicers to him. From what we hear in BaS2, he wasn't widely public-known before the store. Newspapers didn't mention him and some of the prisoners were surprised when he started organizing the place. The problem is, he somehow fucked up and the Splicers stormed him and his men out, two days after Cohen brought them a Little Sister (Sally). I think he was at his advantage as long as he could keep them in control, and so the Atlas we see in BaS2 is clearly one for who things didn't turn up as planned, and quite recently. :If Kashmir was a shock, it's probably because no one expected them to have escaped the same night (Ryan probably thought he could count on his mercs to clean quietly the place), not even Atlas himself since he was planning ahead. Also Fontaine's was a public demonstration of Ryan's philosophy ("give the parasites what they desire, see how they devastate it for more"), not Persephone. Pauolo (talk) 20:33, February 25, 2015 (UTC) "not converted into a prison before at least late November 1958" (ignoring the issues with the consistency of many of the audio-diary dates ...) Thats still quite a while for the "problem" people at 'home for the poor' to be on the loose threatening public safety. They would have been spotted very soon as Ryan's security started assessing all of Fontaines operations/holdings/property. Assuming there were any Splicer survivors of the Neptune shootout, there had (?) to be others who there (and across Rapture) who were part of the smuggling operation (the original indictment), and in the interim (if yet caught) they were kept somewhere (and them also being associated with Fontaine makes them being incarcerated in "Fontaine's" aprapos). Who all lived in the poorhouse (or other similar establishments we never heard of) ... not all residents neccessarily were arrested (many were likely just there for something to eat/place to sleep). If they weren't disruptive, then Ryan probably didn't want to waste resources locking them up or face negative public opinion. Most in Fontaine's were probably the crazy Splicer types (did we see that many normals in Fontaine's?? - and ADAM to convert any was in short supply), who were unpredicatable and dangerous - thus NEEDED to be isolated. Vague - what actual numbers of people involved in all of this (other than the ones we actually saw evidenced in the game). The 'shock' I mention is the scale of violence - that it seemed to have not been seen before (thus the rabblerousing by 'Atlas' upto that time in Apollo Square area wasn't impacting the City much safety-wise (was localized and minor as far as the public was concerned...) Rich people partying "while Rapture Burns" is one thing, but obvious chaos and danger would be an issue reacted to by the rest of Rapture's population. I would think being 'rounded up' for Fontaine/Atlas was unplanned (not a good place to be and hampering his efforts - just the uncertainty). Crazy Splicers might not listen to his practiced con-man talk and could just as likely turn and kill him (evidence shown they weren't really controllable). The whole situation (plot) is problematic anyway because Ryans people would have gone over/investigated/searched the whole place to turn it into a proper prison (even just while looking for evidence of Fontaine's crimes and investigating his now 'Seized' property) - not leaving much for Atlas to work with. A simple warehouse would have served better and been easier to convert/control, and less problematic for Ryan - dealing with the owners/workers of all the other businesses in "Fontaine's". Announcing it was "Back To Business, Under Honest Management" would have be a philosophical coup for Ryan. 09:15, February 26, 2015 (UTC) :The nationalization of Fontaine Futuristics wasn't announced right after the shootout (I'd say around October or November), and that was the spark which started the fire. The council could have disguised the Splicer threat into rounding up all of Fontaine's thugs as they weren't probably all accomplice to him. But I see we agree on a point here, those Splicers had to be isolated, hence Fontaine's. Was there even an hospital in Rapture for treating "Plasmid blues?" Probably some expensive clinics but nothing affordable or at Ryan's expense. :It was always the idea that the Kashmir attack was quite a shock, probably followed by riots as chaos erupted when no one was expected it (except Ryan when the situation went out of control). We don't know how much time occurred between Atlas's escape from Fontaine's and the start of the Masquerade Ball. If he kept contact with the city, I'd say he had enough time to contact his men and stash explosives at the Kashmir, even more if he contacted them after making a deal with Elizabeth. All he had to do once out was regrouping the Splicers from Fontaine's, give them weapons and set them loose on the streets, and I'm sure they were pissed enough for that after Ryan sent his goons to clean up the place. :Probably unplanned, but he sure organized himself right after that. Splicers can be controlled, Lamb succeeded at that without requiring the use of pheromones (at least it was never mentioned she did like Ryan), but probably not without ADAM at hand. Ryan's people had time to search through Fontaine's assets. They probably just wanted to isolate the place and keep bathyspheres away with mines, not turning it into a second Persephone. Also if those Splicers were becoming violent after the nationalization, I don't think they had enough time to think twice how to secure Fontaine's. It was also the best place to be cast away and cut from the city without long preparations. Also it had been back to business for short while after Fontaine's death, it was even selling Ryan Industries Plasmids. Pauolo (talk) 17:42, February 26, 2015 (UTC) :In the more normal times violent splicers were 'handled' by law enforcement and it may have been alot less frequent. Combat-plasmids (and general ADAM abuse) became ALOT more used once the civil War started. SO incidents may have been rare upto Kashmir (Fontaine's_Army - but even this is short of details to pin down - seems to be talking about the Shootout, but technically doesnt actually say). Thats the problem with alot of all this - even the evidence we are given is vague. :Its hard to say how many of Lamb's followers were Splicers and non-Splicers, and by later times when there was probably alot less ADAM available (Liitle Sisters killed or getting too old), its easier (probably) to control Splicers who have lost their power (when their combat-plasmids dont work any more, and we also have years of time involved in that whole situation). Similar uncertainty about details for facilities at Persephone - how they handled Splicers still with their powers (we saw isolation tanks and covered cells which might work for any non-Houdini (assuming that isnt a faked teleport power as has been suggested). Ditto with 'nationalization' timing, and certainly there's the seperate actions of the investigations into Fontaines 'empire' (Ryan had to justify to the public the actions he had taken(Shootout) -- we certainly saw an extensive investigation setup at Neptune's Bounty in the wharfmasters office). :Fontaine probably had planned his death well in advance and had been positioning resources (away from his existing establishments, which would likely be well searched ... that would have been smart). He would have to completely seperate his new identity - if Ryan found out then the whole 'we are just protesting poor people' cover would turn into death warrants on Atlas, and why being trapped in Fontaines was against his plans (and why its illogical to see him acting 'big' there, short of what he needed to do to simply escape). :I thought the dates on the audio diaries made the intervals rather tight (same for events of the whole DLC) but wasnt there discussion here about many conflicts found with those dates which might make them at least questionable? How soon Fontaine's Dept started being used - we dont know (the whole Suchong events complicates/overlaps). Anyway, Fontaine had lots of resources and with the ease that Booker/Elizabeth arrived he could have (?) long previously escaped. Its like no proper temporary 'prison' I ever heard of. Its all too loose a story - if Splicers were 'caught' to put them there, then chaining them up and not letting them run free is a logical option for expediency - but it wasnt done. :So we are chasing after logic with very few facts to go on. My original point is that only saying the 'inmates' were from the 'poorhouses' is an assumption. Some may also be leftovers from the Shootout, and others from dead Fontaine's criminal organization across the city, and some (violent ones) from the 'poorhouses' and the 'protests', and non-Splicer ringleaders like Atlas. : 01:58, February 27, 2015 (UTC) :Rapture's story is full of holes, and particularly between Fontaine's demise and the Civil War, on how the people (except McDonagh) reacted to the killing of the second most successful businessman in Rapture by the hand of his rival's security forces, followed by the nationalization of his assets. Also as you said there was an investigation in Neptune's Bounty, but not limited to (see Prying Eyes and Subversives in the Archives). The end of the smugglers-hunt was probably done in some heavy atmosphere. Incidents were probably rare, but I can imagine the tension being electric since the big shootout (which also displayed publicly the Splicer problem) and Ryan wanted to get rid of any problem before the end of the year (which should have marked the end of Rapture's darkest years). Ryan's grunts surely didn't look twice at any "treacherous" individuals, mostly those gathering together like Atlas who had to in order to reorganize with his remaining men, maybe reaching hidden stashes (probably one in Fontaine's judging from the hill of contraband food at the Manta Ray Lounge). I'd guess that's how he got caught without revealing his identity. :Still even if keeping low profile while still in prison would have been smart, he gained some kind of hero aura by being thrown in and, if he could get control of the Splicers (however he did that), he would have then gained an instantaneous army as frightening as the one from the big shootout, frightening enough to shake Rapture on its grounds, bring chaos to Ryan's doorstep and make him fall from his throne (right next to the city's power controls, in his bunker of an office). On a footnote, Jack was more the last stage of his plan to assassinate Ryan, and he would have been brought to Rapture sooner were not for ADAM becoming less rare thanks to the Little Sisters on the streets, which simply made the whole conflict turn into an arm race. :Again agreeing with you, the dates are thin and mostly for Suchong's diaries. I assume he already worked on some experimental drinking Plasmids before seeing Fink using another way, probably cheaper, to make them while saving him time to research and develop new ones. As for the protector development partnership, I don't think he had as much time as Fink to work on it, and Ryan ('cheap son of a bitch') could have shut down Fontaine's without Suchong's agreement if the scientist wasn't making any progress (even more if Alexander had Alpha Series operational by the end of the year). :As I said, Fontaine's was not supposed to look like a real prison to the public eye, more like an improvised place of exile for discontent people. I get your point, chaining them up would have probably been the best way to deal with them, but I'm not sure the Council would have agreed to that as easily as agreeing to nationalize one of the most profitable businesses in Rapture. Also perhaps Ryan thought the Splicers would kill each other and then he wouldn't have to dirty his own hands. Btw Persephone's prisoners can't be compared to regular Splicers as they were broken men, rented out for unlimited testing, and probably even madder than any of the enemies encountered in the whole series. Still I should replay BioShock 2 some time, I didn't pay much attention to details the first times I played it, mostly because of a low config computer back then. Your maps helped me remember of some of those areas, but I need to see them with my own eyes. :So yes, chasing after logic with very few facts to go on, I guess that's the issue with lots of video games trying to create a complex universe and overloading it with informations. :p I do get your point about Fontaine's Splicers, I should have expressed it differently at first. Lines of most of those Splicers don't even imply they had dealings with Fontaine. Still what's interesting with Fontaine's in the DLC is that the developers were able to show Rapture's incoming Splicer issues in a place which basically represents Rapture in all its culture. It was also a way to not repeat themes already present in levels of the previous games. Pauolo (talk) 21:17, February 27, 2015 (UTC) Inconsistancy - Who IS locked up in Fontaine's Dept Store? : https://bioshock.fandom.com/wiki/Fontaine_Futuristics_%28Business%29#Under_Ryan_Industries "When Andrew Ryan took control of the business, he converted Fontaine's own department store into a prison for the former employees of Fontaine Futuristics (AKA Fontaine's followers), everyone except for Yi Suchong whom was offored a job at Ryan Industries." It might be better not to be too specific and mention they were from Fontaines old gang AND Atlas's troublemakers and certainly quite a number of Splicers amongst them. 11:41, March 1, 2015 (UTC) :Agreed, also I don't like using AKA in pages, acronyms are not the best when making serious articles. Also we should move that post and the previous ones to Fontaine's Department Store (Business) talk page, because we're now a bit far from Apollo Square in subject. Pauolo (talk) 11:56, March 1, 2015 (UTC)